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Ken KarcichTue Dec-31-02 05:42 PM

  
"MAP aluminum rods"


  

          

Has anyone tried the norton rods sold by MAP cycle in St. Petersburg Fla.? I am about to do a major rebuild on my combat, and while I do
have spare 750 rods, I was wondering how good the map rods are and does
anyone have any experience, good or bad with them. I called MAP and they told me that the rods were manufactured by a US drag racing supplier
and that they had sold lots of them with no trouble or complaints. Any
suggestions for other sources of new rods?

  

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squishbandSat Nov-23-02 11:08 PM
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#1. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I would be wary of any rod that had aluminium end caps for prolonged high rpm use....steel rod end caps are best in my opinion .. no I haven't tried them but have been advised against them for road use .... any opinions anyone???

  

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nortonjorgeMon Nov-25-02 02:46 PM
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#2. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

no opinion, but i would like to get their (MAP) website or email address y possible...thanx

  

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squishbandMon Nov-25-02 03:08 PM
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#3. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

go to ....
http://www.britbike.com/cart/srm/shop.cgi/page=conrod.html

cheers......squish

  

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tprMon Nov-25-02 03:51 PM
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#4. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Dear Ken,

I have 3,000+ miles on my MAP rods using Venolia .040 over pistons in my 1975 850 Mk 3 rebuild. No problems so far - the workmanship of the rods was topnotch. Due to the rod's larger dimensions the cutaway in the cylinder liner needs to be enlarged and chamfered - case clearances all around should be checked. Not a problem if you know what you are doing. Instructions come with the rods.

Cheers!

  

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squishbandMon Nov-25-02 04:53 PM
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#5. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

I was fancying these rods for my current project motor.....but I'm not keen on the aluminium end cap and was also advised against it since my motor will be revving to possibly 8000 rpm.....are you using std motor ie stroke? 89mm? and if so what do you rev it to with these rods installed....I'm using 80.4mm stroke 81mm bore...cheers..... squish

  

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Ken KarcichMon Nov-25-02 09:56 PM

  
#6. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

What exactly is it about aluminum endcaps that you have been advised against? It would seem that there are advantages as well as disadvantages, namely that if you are revving to high rpm, the lighter
cap reduces stress on the big end, and certainly reduces stress on the
crank, since there is less weight swinging around causing the crank to
flex. On the other hand, steel is probably better at hokding its form
under stress, but that might depend on the aluminum alloy used and the
rod bolts. Anyway, can you expand on what you have heard about aluminum
caps? Thanks.

  

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Ken KarcichMon Nov-25-02 10:09 PM

  
#7. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

Thanks, TPR. I would like it if you had more miles on that motor, but
still this is the kind of info I was looking for. As I said, I do have
some extra stock rods, but no matter how you cut it, aluminum has a definite fatigue life, and I hate to put old rods, polished and crack tested or not, in a new motor. Kenny
Dreer who builds brand new nortons out in Oregon, uses Oliver parabolic
rods in his custom 880's, which are supposed to be lighter than the carrillos, much closer to stock weight and strong. I don't know what the carrillos cost, but
Oliver quoted me 500 each for a custom built oneof. Thats a little rich
for my blood, but on the other hand, built motors cost lots of money, and
one broken rod can cost lots. It has happened to me already.

  

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squishbandMon Nov-25-02 11:01 PM
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#8. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

I will find out definitley for you but will take a week or two..... I believe that the advice was based upon the cap deforming slightly at high rpm.
I do believe that the lighter the rod the better if I were to see conclusive proof that they were ok I would consider using them at a later date.....for now I will be using new checked commando rods.... techincalities I won't go into now but just to say my barrels are 'shorter' than standard, and that the piston speed for an 80.4mm stroke is same at 7800 rpm as standard 89mm stroke at 7000 rpm.
cheers .... squish

  

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SquishbandTue Nov-26-02 11:04 PM

  
#9. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

I spoke to SRM re these rods today and the guy said the caps were keyed to one another and could stand ever so much horse power in a dragster motor......so a standard commando motor should be no problem...saying that.. I would say a rod is under most stretching stress on the exhaust/inlet cycle when the end caps are needed to counter the massive g forces exerted by the piston movement so I'm not competely convinced yet...I'll speak to the person who advised me against them and come back to ya......cheers squish

  

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Ken KarcichTue Nov-26-02 11:51 PM

  
#10. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

I think I may have found the source for MAPS aluminum rods, at least these rods look exactly like the map rods, and use brp fasteners. Also
they are cnc machined out of 7075 aluminum plate, which makes the manufacturer able to make custom rods of any length. Also, they state in
there web site that they do rods for motorcycles. Check out this website:http://www.grpconrods.com/. I have sent them an email asking them what the life of their big ends would be compared to a stock norton
rod with a steel cap. I will post their answer.

  

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tprWed Nov-27-02 06:03 PM
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#11. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Dear Ken,

I am not an engineer (well, actually I am an engineer - a locomotive engineer and I even stayed at a Holiday Inn Select once but that's another story) but I think the concerns about these rods are due to a lack of understanding of 7075 aluminium and its suitability for this purpose. According to my local Metal Market handbook 7075 is perfectly able to withstand exactly the sort of forces that act upon a connecting rod in this application. Take a look at the size and thickness of the MAP end cap compared to the stock steel endcap - it is one of the reasons you must check clearances within the case. I too, wanted to use Carrillo's and the Oliver rods but my budget wouldn't handle it. I can't recommend what you should use - it sounds like you want to go fast. In my case I drive not much faster than a freight train - which isn't too fast! Remember it is not just the rods that let go in Norton motors - cranks break too!

Cheers!

  

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squishbandWed Nov-27-02 10:32 PM
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#12. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

You're correct its not just the rods that let go but using a short stroke crank gives quite a few advantages...and disadvantages...
1. Its a common Myth that for two identical sizes of cylinder one oversquare and one very undersquare using same cam and valves etc that the long stroke version will produce more torque.....wrong...they should to all intents and purposes put out the same....in fact the resultant reduction in valve masking on the shorter stroke version may even produce more power....
2.for a rod length/stroke ratio of between 1.65 - 2 the mean piston speed of a 4 stroke engine must not exceed 20 to 25 m/sec...to get mean piston speed at any rpm ... multiply stroke by rpm then divide by 30000 ie 89mm x 7000 = 623000 divided by 30000 = 20.76 m/sec.
if I substitute stroke of 80.4mm we get.... 18.76 m/sec....in fact the rpm that the mean piston speed equals that of the long stroke at 7000 is now.....7746 rpm so if you can now develop torque at a higher rpm ...more power...power = torque x rpm ..approx.(camshaft and porting allowing.
3.The short stroke crank is stronger than the 89mm one due to the fact that the big end journals overlap the main bearing journals slightly on the shorter stroke...the main problem with the short stroke crank is the central flywheel...it becomes a grenade at really high rpm so if say 8000 is to be exceeded then a steel centre is needed or advised.
4.I dont want to use steel rods due to weight/balance/stress consideration and aluminium rods also conduct heat from the pistons better.
5.I believe that this combination will result in a more reliable high performance motor than standard and also a smoother one.
6.The biggest disadvantage is the cost of all the parts and the work involved putting it togther properly.
7.I have built one of these in the past and am doing it again.
8.Can I also be so bold as to suggest that the short stroke can be the combat solution to unreliablity???after all why did the flat track guys use them as opposed to the long stroke??
8.I will not rule out the map rods but need a bit more convincing yet......they may be a bit of overkill for the first stage of my project...I too like you are wary to use anything I haven't tried especially rods...when I find out more I'll come back....
by the way Ken what max rpm are you considering with this motor??.....cheers squish

  

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janThu Nov-28-02 06:39 AM
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#15. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

I think it is not a myth that , everything else equal ( total capacity , CR...) a long stroke engine will produce more torque . the combustion chamber will be more compact , so less thermal surface losses and more efficiency (most at low rpm ). The higher crank radius means more leverage and thus more torque .
The increase in max. safe mean ( average) piston speed is not so linear as you suggest ,because it also depends on the weight of the piston , witch will likely be higher in the oversquare engine .

  

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Ken KarcichThu Nov-28-02 12:44 PM

  
#18. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

Dear Squish,

For this big motor, I would limit revs to something less than 7k, probably limit at 6500 max. My combats I have always limited to 7k
shift points. I broke one rod in half in a early commando once, but
as far as I could tell after examining the remains, the bearing spun
first, seizing the rod on the big end, then the rod snapped in half and swung around the crank taking chunks out of the cases. When this
happened, I was right on it, and things got pretty dicey when the
engine locked up. I didn't drop it, but I don't know how because all
the oil dumped all over the rear K81.





  

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Ken KarcichWed Nov-27-02 10:54 PM

  
#13. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

Dear tpr,

Everything in a norton is a marvel of compromise, and the bottom ends can be broken. As a engineer myself, I like to build engines, but I like to build good engines with good understanding of the materials and design that I am working with. I currently think think the brp/map
rods are good for the compromise that the norton is, where recpro weight is a big issue, especially with the stock crank. But that said,
I am perfectly willing and interested in the opinions of knowledgable
others who have experience to share, so that is why I posted the question. And I am grateful for all who have contributed to this thread because it helps me understand the issues. And yes, I like to
ride fast, but that is not the real issue, building good engines is.

  

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squishbandWed Nov-27-02 11:33 PM
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#14. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

Yes I fully agree with you Ken as to building good engines....If you use the MAP rods please let me know the results....one other bit of info SRM told me is that seemingly they use the same bolts as carillo?? the only thing I was trying to work out is do they like carillo rods have no oil spray holes??? not that that is a problem as they can be blanked off anyway without much adverse effect.
please keep me posted......squish

  

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squishbandThu Nov-28-02 09:44 AM
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#16. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

Jan,
On that I don't agree re torque from a shorter stroke engine to a long stroke.....if one goes really short stroke then yes the piston weight and flame path time comes into it but with the other items I just disagree.....so keep on trucking as they say...I am not saying the piston speed is linear but in my perevious post we are talking about an average speed...it is in fact found by the following formula....
Rw(sinCA + 1/2RLsin(2ca)
where R is crank throw radius (1/2 stroke)
w is engine speed
CA is crank angle
L is conrod length
even though this is still a bit approximate
if you want to work out piston accelleration I can post the formula for that also....

as you will see max piston speed will be somewhere about 74 to 76 degrees either side of TDC and lengthening the conrod will slow it down slightly around TDC and push the max piston speed towards but never reaching the 90 degree point...
From all this the 81mm pistons available I am using are the same weight as the 77mm powermax ones.....am I getting through now????.....so the scenario I have should be at least as good as a long stroke 828 using same cam porting compression etc....If you dont agree the we'll have to agree to disagree....cheers squish

  

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squishbandThu Nov-28-02 10:17 AM
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#17. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

Just one further point...torque I believe is a function of force and lever length is it not?? so the longer the stroke for the same force then the higher the torque...BUT in the case I wrote about the bore is increased for the shorter stroke and therefore the area of the top of the piston is increased so assuming the flame pressure or BMEP is the same for both engines the the downward force will be higher for the larger piston albeit with a less crank angle but it should even out in calculations....cheers squish

  

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janTue Dec-03-02 07:34 AM
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#20. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

"...assuming the flame pressure is the same..." It will NOT be the same . In an internal combustion engine roughly 30% of energy is lost in heat transfer to the cyl. head and the piston surface . In the larger bore engine the same volume of mixture will be exposed to a larger surface , so more energy loss .(nothing to do with flame speed)
With "not linear" , I was not referring to primary or secundary piston speed , but to the fact that a 10% decrease in stroke not automatically means a 10% higher SAFE engine rpm .

  

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but I am tprMon Dec-02-02 05:07 PM

  
#19. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

Dear Ken,

The MAP rods do not have oilspray holes in the big end - another method of ensuring the rod's integrity, I think?

Cheers!

  

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squishbandWed Dec-04-02 05:20 PM
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#21. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

Jan,
I simply DO NOT AGREE with you...as I said earlier we must now agree to disagree.....I am simply not interested in forcing an opinion on anyone and this forum must not become an area for bickering....I suppose you must have a degree in automotive engineering or something....just think on this....why did norton develop the JPN racer to a short stroke combination from the long stroke???? why does a bonneville 750 perform similarly to a 750 norton (with similar compression and induction etc having the 82mm stroke) and the BSA twins likewise and why did the Yamaha XS650 perform so well and in fact other Japanese short stroke machines)(not taking into account better valve atuation etc)....you stick to long strokes and the 'lack of heat loss' and I'll stick to short strokes .... thank you for your valuable input...squish

  

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janFri Dec-06-02 05:55 AM
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#22. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I think a long stroke is better than a short stroke . If you want more power , a shorter stroke has many advantages , but you need bigger or multiple valves , domed pistons , etc... to get full use of it . And of course you don't have to agree with me . If you want to rewrite the laws of thermodynamics , thats fine . Good luck with your project.

  

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Ken KarcichSun Dec-08-02 12:36 PM

  
#23. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

Dear TPR,

What is the significance of not having the oil spray holes in the big
end? Anybody? I would guess that they do not do much.

  

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squishbandSun Dec-08-02 10:27 PM
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#24. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Jan,
I'm glad you agree with me on something....I think we may have got off on wrong foot....if you say take the 828 motor and put a short stroke crank on it making it a 750.....it will not have same torque per rpm but if the torque curve can be made to develop higher then it will give more power(bhp) as you know I was referring to keeping the cc's the same in other words a short stroke 828....I will post my project results when I am there for the second time... I know cannot and don't wish to re-write the laws of thermodynamics....a professor(MSc) of automotive engineering of Leeds University in the UK posted the info on the Myth which I fully agree with I can get his name if you wish and read his article ....If we didnt get off on the wrong foot then thanks for the good wishes ...so anyhow...as for the spray holes in the rods...I'm not exactly sure if they were put there to assist cooling the larger bore motor cylinders...BSA did a similar trick with one of its twins I believe but to one side only...the holes were introduced at engine number 116272 by good old Mr Heudle....I think thats how its spelled...10000 engines before the first Commando when they changed the oil pump speed and pressure fed the rockers and changed from scrolled to plain rocker spindles...they had problems with overoiling and had to use a 5 part oil control ring.....some people just blank them off by fitting the big end shell bearings upside down....carillo rods dont have them and run fine....if I blanked them off I'd run the mixture a bit richer for a while....I may be wrong but I'd go for cooling as their use.....others may have a different theory....cheers squish

  

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but I am tprMon Dec-09-02 05:19 PM

  
#25. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Dear Ken,

I am not a mechanical engineer but I think anytime you drill a hole in a stressed member like a connecting rod big end the strength of the component is compromised. Why oil spray holes were placed in the original Norton rods is a mystery - the Brit's always had a reason for doing things so they must know. (To relieve oil pressure feeding the big end bearings from the timing side and/or lubricate the cylinder skirts???) This also brings up the question what do I do with the big end shell bearing that has the hole drilled in it? In my case I bought two sets of big end bearings and used the four that were not drilled. My thinking is the oil will find its way out through the sides of the rods - so far I have not blown any timing or primary side oil seals and I have good return to the oil tank from the return line. Incidently, when I tore down the engine I found it was fitted with one stamped circle 'D' rod and one rod with a number that according to Les Emery was the best rod Norton ever made. Les also said the Circle 'D' rod was a time bomb waiting to go off - the small ends let go supposedly!

Cheers!

  

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andersonjMon Dec-09-02 08:03 PM

  
#26. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

My recollection from reading through the years is that these holes were introduced because of seizure problems on the left cylinder but that it was probably a cure for a different problem. The cause was more about igniton and carburation so that when finally these issues were sorted the holes became unnecessary. (Having seized a left cylinder twice I can assure you it is still possible to get it wrong !!! )

I also recall that the seizing was not always when the motor was at peak revs on the main jet but commonly in mid range stable cruise on the slide or needle part of the carb settings. ie not when the motor was being run up and down but stable at moderate high speed cruise on a motorway (say 70 mph).


John

  

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Mike LindroosThu Jul-08-04 12:36 AM

  
#35. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

Correct on the left hand cylinder seizure, it started on the Atlas 750 motors and was resolved by drilling a hole on the outer (case) side of the rod to spray oil around the bore. At the same time the oil pump was uprated to increase volume, so you have to be careful when swapping early 750 parts around in a rebuild situation.

Regards,
Mike Lindroos
Perth, Western Australia

  

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Ken KarcichTue Dec-10-02 09:29 PM

  
#27. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

Dear TPR,

What was the number of the rod that les emory said was the best norton
rod made? Anyone? I have heard this before, but these elusive numbers
keep eluding me. I would like to have a list of the best and the worst.
Thanks.

  

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but I am tprMon Dec-16-02 05:29 PM

  
#28. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

Dear Ken,

I dragged my old rods out of the closet - the 'best' one (according to Les Emery) has the following stamping on the oilway side:

NM23258 - (stamped circle with an 'H') - R5R2R.

Its' bad mate as originally supplied in my engine is stamped:

(stamped circle 'D') - 23258 - (stamped circle 'D').

Cheers!








  

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NortonGuyThu Jul-31-03 05:11 PM
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#29. "Deleted message"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

No message

NortonGuy
Board Founder

  

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FlashbackSat Aug-02-03 11:28 PM
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#30. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

My browser shows it as a "pinned" topic. I thought that was an admin function as I have not found a way to un-pin it.

Thought it was just me

  

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BlahTue Sep-16-03 10:49 PM

  
#31. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


Can I talk about rods too?!


I and a few friends have and are racing nortons. My one friend Ed, goes through one or two 750 engines a year road racing in AHRMA. He is a nice guy, and he holds his own in races. He does not seem to be the best at engines though. He broke a rod in his race engine earlier this season at the race before mid-ohio, and it sawed the engine in half. He had a lot of money in it. He was running stock rods. A guy running a yamaha twin at mid-ohio vitage days was killed this year when his rod broke and oiled his rear tire, he went down and another rider hit him. So rods are important. Your life could depend on them, on the track or street.

Another friend of mine named Ken has been racing Nortons for years and is good friends with C.R. Axtell and Ron Wood. Right now he is building Norton engines for a speed record attempt at Bonneville salt flats. He uses cases, cranks and barrels from Steve Manney Racing in England with Carillo rods. And get this: He is building three engines for three classes, a 750, a 920 and one of the engines is going to be 1000cc. He says with the Manney components in 750 and larger Nortons they are 100% reliable at 8500rpm. He can run them all day, and he says no matter what head he uses the powerband falls off before the safe rev limit of the engines is reached.

I talked to him about the Carillo rods and about how you hear this and that about them being too heavy. He said that is a bunch of crap. Most of the extra weight in the Carillo is on the big end and they do not add that much to the reciprocating weight. Ken is an old, old hat at building big Norton engines and road racing them. So are his two buddies I mentioned earlier.

As for rods with aluminum caps. In auto racing they only use them in drag racing. BSAs have aluminum caps. IF you take apart any three Triumph, Norton, and BSA twin engines, and check the roundness of the big end, the BSA will need resizing everytime, and the Triumph and Norton rods with the steel caps are almost always fine.

Heinz Kegler has been racing a factory daytona domiracer since the mid sixties on one set of Carrilos.

I know my friend Ed, and the guy who died at mid-ohio wish they had had Carillo rods now. Sure they are expensive initially. But if you buy a set for a norton, you will have them for the rest of your life. They will be around when the rest of the engine is dust. I have had a couple sets of them. They are both in fine shape. ONe pair I am the second owner of, and the other I sold to a friend and he is still using them. Both sets of rods are close to twenty years old and both have been in road race engines. So over twenty years that is pretty damn cheap.

You can bet your A$$ if I end up on the track on a Norton twin in the future it will have Carillos in it. And when the season is over the engine will still be in one piece because of it.

Now on short stroke vs long stroke. The most powerful Norton race engine on gas was Ron Woods short stroke 750. With 83 rear wheel horsepower. The bigger bore unshrouds the oversize valves. Plus of course it held together a bit longer before grenading. Ken says if Wood had the Manney components in the seventies he never would have blown an engine. Woods stock cases always broke. Woods long stroke 750s made almost as much power though were less reliable. On all Woods race engines he used 9:1 compression on the long track engines and 10:1 on the short track motors. His heads were never bigger than 32mm where the inlet manifold bolted on and Axtell said he could get just as much power with some heads that were the stock 30mm at the manifold! He used nail-head valves. And a must have is the Axtell #3 cam. NO one ever made as much power without one. Axtell does not make of sell them anymore though. Fortunately, Some were sold to England to racers and they worked so well they still make them over there. Get a PW#3 cam from Norman White.
So you should be able to put together a 9:1 compression,long stroke 750 engine with the right porting and cam, carbs and exhaust, and make just about as much power at the rear wheel as anyone ever has from a Norton 750. If you don't you just didn't do it right. Exotic $hit is going to get you not a lot more, for a lot more money.
Find the seventies Cycle magazine with the article "Dirt track limousine" for a good look at The Axtell-Wood Nortons.

For us mortals and for the street, exotic short stroke stuff is unecessary.


benjamin

  

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DaveMon Oct-27-03 07:46 PM

  
#32. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

Does anyone know an address for Steve Maney Racing?

  

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janTue Oct-28-03 02:59 AM
Member since Mar 18th 2009
128 posts
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#33. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

Steve Maney Racing
Middlestown Engineering
New Road
Middlestown Wakefield WF4 4NU
phone 0924 265158

  

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DaveTue Oct-28-03 05:20 PM

  
#34. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

Thanks, I appreciate it.

  

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JTTue Sep-20-05 08:12 AM

  
#36. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

>
> Can I talk about rods too?!
>
>
> I and a few friends have and are racing nortons. My
>one friend Ed, goes through one or two 750 engines a year road
>racing in AHRMA. He is a nice guy, and he holds his own in
>races. He does not seem to be the best at engines though. He
>broke a rod in his race engine earlier this season at the race
>before mid-ohio, and it sawed the engine in half. He had a lot
>of money in it. He was running stock rods. A guy running a
>yamaha twin at mid-ohio vitage days was killed this year when
>his rod broke and oiled his rear tire, he went down and
>another rider hit him. So rods are important. Your life could
>depend on them, on the track or street.
>
> Another friend of mine named Ken has been racing
>Nortons for years and is good friends with C.R. Axtell and Ron
>Wood. Right now he is building Norton engines for a speed
>record attempt at Bonneville salt flats. He uses cases, cranks
>and barrels from Steve Manney Racing in England with Carillo
>rods. And get this: He is building three engines for three
>classes, a 750, a 920 and one of the engines is going to be
>1000cc. He says with the Manney components in 750 and larger
>Nortons they are 100% reliable at 8500rpm. He can run them all
>day, and he says no matter what head he uses the powerband
>falls off before the safe rev limit of the engines is
>reached.
>
> I talked to him about the Carillo rods and about how
>you hear this and that about them being too heavy. He said
>that is a bunch of crap. Most of the extra weight in the
>Carillo is on the big end and they do not add that much to the
>reciprocating weight. Ken is an old, old hat at building big
>Norton engines and road racing them. So are his two buddies I
>mentioned earlier.
>
> As for rods with aluminum caps. In auto racing they
>only use them in drag racing. BSAs have aluminum caps. IF you
>take apart any three Triumph, Norton, and BSA twin engines,
>and check the roundness of the big end, the BSA will need
>resizing everytime, and the Triumph and Norton rods with the
>steel caps are almost always fine.
>
> Heinz Kegler has been racing a factory daytona domiracer
>since the mid sixties on one set of Carrilos.
>
> I know my friend Ed, and the guy who died at mid-ohio
>wish they had had Carillo rods now. Sure they are expensive
>initially. But if you buy a set for a norton, you will have
>them for the rest of your life. They will be around when the
>rest of the engine is dust. I have had a couple sets of them.
>They are both in fine shape. ONe pair I am the second owner
>of, and the other I sold to a friend and he is still using
>them. Both sets of rods are close to twenty years old and both
>have been in road race engines. So over twenty years that is
>pretty damn cheap.
>
> You can bet your A$$ if I end up on the track on a
>Norton twin in the future it will have Carillos in it. And
>when the season is over the engine will still be in one piece
>because of it.
>
> Now on short stroke vs long stroke. The most powerful
>Norton race engine on gas was Ron Woods short stroke 750. With
>83 rear wheel horsepower. The bigger bore unshrouds the
>oversize valves. Plus of course it held together a bit longer
>before grenading. Ken says if Wood had the Manney components
>in the seventies he never would have blown an engine. Woods
>stock cases always broke. Woods long stroke 750s made almost
>as much power though were less reliable. On all Woods race
>engines he used 9:1 compression on the long track engines and
>10:1 on the short track motors. His heads were never bigger
>than 32mm where the inlet manifold bolted on and Axtell said
>he could get just as much power with some heads that were the
>stock 30mm at the manifold! He used nail-head valves. And a
>must have is the Axtell #3 cam. NO one ever made as much power
>without one. Axtell does not make of sell them anymore though.
>Fortunately, Some were sold to England to racers and they
>worked so well they still make them over there. Get a PW#3 cam
>from Norman White.
> So you should be able to put together a 9:1
>compression,long stroke 750 engine with the right porting and
>cam, carbs and exhaust, and make just about as much power at
>the rear wheel as anyone ever has from a Norton 750. If you
>don't you just didn't do it right. Exotic $hit is going to get
>you not a lot more, for a lot more money.
> Find the seventies Cycle magazine with the article "Dirt
>track limousine" for a good look at The Axtell-Wood Nortons.
>
>
> For us mortals and for the street, exotic short stroke
>stuff is unecessary.
>
>
> benjamin

  

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John BradleyThu Oct-06-05 03:37 AM

  
#37. "RE: MAP aluminum rods"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I've done 70,000 quite hard miles on my standard combat rods.
Can't see the need on a street bike.

  

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