Hi Folks, Looking for a definitive answer on the Lucas Handlebar switches, 39595A and 39596A. Here's the issue. The Norton Villiers parts book for 750 Commandos lists 39595A as the right hand switch and 39596A as the left hand switch. The schematics in the Norton service manual, Clymers and Haynes all show the right hand switch as the hi/lo beam and the left hand switch as signal lights.

The question is, is this accurate? I continually see switches listed on ebay as left hand switches but they have the hi/lo beam function which I consider right hand. Is there any chance Norton used this same part on opposite sides for different generations? Were these switches in use until the MKIIIs? Did people swap sides with these switches routinely?

I'm working on my 1st Commando and I bought it in a box so I don't have a lot of history with these things.

Thanks in advance,
Welby

I swapped mine over as soon as I got the bike in 1981, it then matched the controls on the car.

The original 750 location was definitly high low beam on the right. Directional switch on the left.

But people very often swapped them over.

I now have a Triumph switch unit with everything on the left because I found the right hand side difficult to use with the throtle.

From the norton factory shop manual pn 065146:

"SECTION J19

HANDLEBAR SWITCH CLUSTERS
(1971 and later models)

The switch clusters are accommodated in light alloy castings. Whilst the switches are not sealed units, the method of assembly renders reassembly by an owner or dealer extremely difficult, if not impossible, and we must recommend against attempts at dismantling.

The right switch cluster includes, at the bottom, the kill (or cut-out) button and a spare button at the top. The 3-position flick switch operates the direction indicators which are available as optional extras. The switch functions as below:


1 With the lever in the central position and no buttons being pressed, the only leads connected are the White and White/Yellow. This is because the lower push button operates a normally closed (i.e. push to open) switch.

2 Pressing the lower push button opens the White-White/Yellow leads (Ignition cut-out).

3 Pressing the upper push button connects the White lead to the White/Red lead. This button has no function at the present.

4 Moving the switch lever to the upper position connects the light Green/Brown lead to the Green Red lead (L.H. indicators where fitted).

5 Moving the switch lever to its lower position connects the light Green/Brown lead to the Green/ White lead (R.H. indicators where fitted).

The left hand switch cluster accommodates the horn button (at the bottom), the headlamp flasher at the top and the two position dip switch. The headlamp flasher permits the headlamp to be flashed as an overtaking warning when the lights are not switched on.

The lever on this switch has only two positions, upward and horizontal.

1 With the switch lever in the horizontal position and no buttons being pressed the only 2 cables connected are Blue and Blue/Red (Dip beam).

2 Moving the lever to its upper position connects the Blue lead to the Blue/White lead (Main beam).

3 Pressing the lower button connects the White lead to the Purple/Black lead (Horn).

4 Pressing the upper button connects the White lead to the Blue/White lead (Headlamp flasher).

Note: These clusters may easily be reversed from side to side depending upon owner preference."

My notes...the factory schematics are also mislabled as to RH or LH
So originally the LH cluster has the blue series of wires
The RH cluster has the gn/w gn/r turn signals
and also note the facory says they are EASILY reversed.
A search of old threads shows this has been covered before...
Also note the PN's V.S. function are not clarified in the parts book!!!!! If in doubt, buy these by wire color not PN.
Dave

Dave's correct - Im wrong.

How embarassing is that !!!

How could I ride round for the first 10 years and still forget it ??? I changed it all to the left side years ago and have clearly lost the plot.

Luckly I still have kids to remind me where I live!!!

Thanks for the feedback to all who answered. Dynodave, that was a very clear explanation and gives me a clear understanding as to why there are differing opinions that people so adamently defend. I'm surprised this documentation snafu never made it into the INOA Tech Digest. Thanks again.

Dave is completly correct. I am completly wrong.

How could I do that !!!! I now remember it was the indicator being difficult to use with the throttle that made me change it over in the first place.

It's a wonder I find my way home at night!!!

John

John
Don't be so hard on yourself.
In this case, the shop manual is correct. Though not always. There are ocassional goof ups in the parts book too.
I leave my norton switches as original so the horn and hi/lo beam are the same as my 2 ducati's. My only norton with turn signals is my 75 MKIII. I don't find it a big deal to adjust. Turn signals are paractically never used for emergencies....
dave

Nice discussion, but does anyone know where I can actually get a right hand headlight dipper switch? Mine broke in a crash, and I have scoured the world (literally) without luck. hen's teeth are more common.

Actually, all I need is the black plastic paddle, but a whole switch if necessary.

Ned

Where are you located...?
Last weekend I was at BritJam meet (BIA of Connecticut) There was at least 1/2 dozen used ones in the vendors parts boxes, and it had a very small flea market(of britsh parts) at that....

Hello Dynodave,

You were at a swap meet and there were a few of them around? Man, I wish i had been there. i would have bought them all. In terms of location, I am not all that near you. In fact, I am in Melboune, Australia, which is somewhat inconvenient for swap meets in your neck of the woods. On the up side, we are now coming out of winter (relatively mild in any case - a bit like and English summer), and the local NOC has a ride on this Sunday.

I did think I'd found the switch i was after, at Old Britt in Washington State. The package arrived two days agao and you can imagine my 'kid on Christmas morning' excitement ... and then the disappointment when I opened it to find they had sent me a headlight on-off switch and not the handbar switch at all. I mailed it back to them today. Grrr.

If you do happen to see such a switch in your travels, or even just the black plastic paddle, please snap it up for me, or at least pass on the details of where it is, and let me know at dlk@deakin.edu.au - I would be really appreciative as this is the only things that now stops my MkII Commando from being just about ... well, if not perfect, at least pretty damned good. I will be over in the US, i think, maybe later this year, and be happy to drop by and buy you a beer by way of saying thanks for any advice/direction/etc.

Cheers,

Ned

Hi Dave,

Just to let you know that I have compromised. I found a place where I could get matching short switch-block paddles and have purchased those. they were stock on other years (as well as those dreaed Triumphs), so although not original they will work, and at least be matching.

Cheers,

ned

Gentlemen, I'm tacking this question on as a 'piggy back' to the original question (though years later) as it SEEMS related. I've purchased a '72 850. No Norton experience, slowly learning/making her mine. I know most of you will laugh... but I just noticed that the RIGHT hand side (I believe referred to as the 'cluster') switch... well, the wires are missing! I removed the switch, looked inside, and can see where some (apparently) RDPO used wire snips, and literally CUT each wire off right at the soldering point. So, related to original question, it appears that I'll need to also locate this switch, or else at least solder fresh wire on (doubtful for me, at best).

QUESTION: ah... in MY perception... this seems a rather stupid thing to do. However, PERHAPS there is some well known Norton accepted 'reason' out there why this may have been done? If so, I'd be curious?

And the obvious applies from you experienced guys... like, if a LEFT cluster switch can simply be turned upside down, easily used on the right hand side...

And, Dynodave... I'm happy to say that, after lots of reading, I was positive that the turn signals were to be operated by the RIGHT hand cluster, and that even before I read your definative answer!

(But I'm still trying to get your search engine to work on this site. Anyone else experiencing difficulties with it displaying old posts?)

THe aluminum castings are not "handed" and can be used on left or right.
The switches are specific and are not interchangeable.

No good reason to cut wires except if they removed the functions ...kill button...turn signals...as if disabled or bypassed.

Dave: If I understand you correctly, then it appears my options (only TWO that I can see?) remains correct. That is, either soldering new wires to the inside of the switch (in essence completely re-fab the cluster WIRING) or finding/buying that aluminum housing with switch/wire cluster somewhere?

What I DO know, is that I won't be successfull in putting operational turn signals on her, without the turn signal switch wiring (heck, even I can figure THAT out, lol's!).

And if my options are the only available... I doubt that I could find 'bulk' wiring the correct color with the correct 'tracer' colors, too, plugs, etc...and, even if I did, by the time I got done with everything... probably close to costing me what buying a used cluster off eBay would be.

So, hey, if anyone here happens to have that (old, spare, un-used) right hand (signal) cluster curled up in a box somewhwere's... please let me know what you want for it.

AS AN ASIDE: just curious, as I see there's actually quite a number of Nortons without turn indicators being sold... aren't you guys (without signals) rather nervous riding at night in a large metropolitan region? (I'm nervous even in daylight rush hour traffic, not having turn signals).

Ebay(australia) is your best bet. Though you might end up buying more then one to get one working. I have bought several things from OZ.

Also IIRC There is a yahoo groups of Australian guys for brit bikes.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/MadeInEngland/

Wires...I use old MGB harness for raw stock.

Huh. Am beginning to believe that, regardless of the thread... regardless of the topic question I'd have on this site... I might as well start it off with a 'Dear DynoDave' header. Other than yourself (and NortonGuy?)... is there any living humans on this site? (I've mental pictures of mummified bodies in tattered Norton period t-shirts, hunched over pale lit, illuminated MONOchrome monitors lol's!)

OZ = OZstralia (as in the old 'down under'?
IIRC = ??

MGB!? Interesting that you should say that, as I've been considering searching through a bunch of old Triumph sports car harnesses I have about (Spitfires, GT6's, etc), to see if I could locate matching (or near) matching OEM wires with correct color codes. Never could solder worth a damn, though. MIG the wires, maybe?

Will check out the site you provided. As always, thanks.
The OWNERS manual link you provided answered more 'basic' questions than both repair manuals (or at least easier to find beginner answers).

What's your link all about? Pic of you at a desk? Your bike? Different Norton site? Forum, business...? Just curious.

I remain unable to retrieve any archived data from this site, via search. Very sad. With nobody ever saying if they (now) can or not, I've quit trying. Makes no friggin sense to keep trying to read archived data, when the problem could be a glitch in a storage basin somewhere in Emerald City for all I know.

Hmm. Ramblin', as usual...

Hi Bull
I thought you said you were from OZ? Was I mistaken?

Yes there is mainly me and a few friends that drop in now and then.

This used to be the premier norton site. A lot of members left for a site hosted out of california. That's where attitude counts more then technical accuracy. New guys love it. Lots of chit chat but lots of bad info.......I finally quit posting there since people don't like being corrected and I am NOT the internet norton police for bad info.
I could spend 40 hours a week giving away free info...sorry no desire to shove info down anyones throat.

I am not a "know it all" but I have been researching in depth quite a few norton heavy twin topics for going on 20 years.
I was asked to be one of the contributing editors for the INOA "tech Digest". The INOA being the north america norton club...USA/Canada
I have been in NENO New England Norton Owners for 20 years...currently president...see NNENO.org
I routinely get asked to give the tech sessions at the national rallys when they are on the east coast.
I do my own work on my bikes 1952 model 7, several atlas', several commandos.
Since my research sometimes is above the normal entertainment value of the national club rag, I make my tech data available on my website
atlanticgreen.com
I do this because I HATE to type...especially the same thing over and over. I do sell a few norton bits from my site also

This site did have a good search feature but nortonguy (Steve) has been doing website stuff and it may not be cleaned up yet.

Hey, Dave,

Nope, Wisconsin, which is why you mentioned 'Klemph's' in Minnesota to me a couple of weeks back. Guess you got me confused with that OTHER really great guy around here, lots of laughs!
I hear you on the typing. I used to post answers on a Triumph (sports cars, not bike's) forum, finally flat out quit doing it. Just could never say 'no' to someone asking for help, and started getting irritated that the same questions seemed to come up from every person who happened to buy an old LBC (little british car). I was no Guru... but managed to become proficient at spotting the cracked posters, the 6 month owners who knew it all, as I'm sure you understand. Ha! I actually wrote a very long-winded (what else 3-4 page dense typed info sheet on exactly how the antique seatbelts were manufactured, how they mechanically operated (almost gimbaled 'like'). Reason? People kept buying the equipment for restoration, than kept complaining the antique stuff didn't work (though it was really owner/operator error, equipment was fine).

Steve is NortonGuy, huh? I'd read a post where he's crushed doing the updating of this site. I will have to track him down, try to make him understand that I was venting some frustration out of MYSELF, not actually venting at him. Hopefully, he'll understand. If not, sai la vie, or however the french say it. Still, want to apologize to the guy.

I'll be checking out the stuff you mentioned in that last post when I get the chance (after midnight right now, I'm beat). Every time you 'open your mouth' I garner something from you. By the way, CLYMER covers the basics of oil and lubricants seemingly far better to me than did Haynes. Not sure why they'd have done so... unless being so new to it all, it was my mistaken reading, confusing myself (quite likely).

Be good (all you future readers, too).

Hi guys

I guess this is slightly off the topic but still about Lucas switches.

I have just purchased a pair of Lucas 169SA switches, both the LH and RH side.

Can anyone suggest the wiring and purpose of those. I read the above topic in great detail and have the general drift. Just wandering if these switches I have are slightly different.

the LH side middle "wing" switch has three positions, in the UP positioin the switch stays and needs to be pushed down to return into the middle position. However the bottom position is springloaded and the "wing" always returns to the middle position by itself.

The same applies to the RH switch except it is reversed. The "wing" returns by itself from the UP position and stays in the DOWN position.

There's five cables coming out of each side, Blue, White, White/Blue, Red/Blue and Purple/Black

If anyone could shed any light on these I would really appreciate.

thanks

Tstop

The blue-/White-/red-purple etc is the head light/horn cluster
The physical action you describe is not typical.
High beam is up and down is low beam.
temporary up may be flash high for passing in the daytime.
but push to release is unknown to me...